This Is The Aftermath

a conversation held over facebook with aliza hausman of http://www.alizahausman.net/ concerning “guess who’s coming to seder“. enjoy.

manishtana

that wasnt what i was saying at all. i was saying that those jocs that there are enough of to create a group, should, if only to create a form of judaism that can stand alongside “ashkenazi” or “sephardi” or “temani” etc, etc. once that is established, then sure everyone can do what they want b/c theyll have a ground of “this is what i, as an [insert ethnic] jew bring to the minhag table. at seudah shilishit i eat ackee and saltfish, b/c this is what the blending of my culture and my judaism  has created”… never did i say that interracial marriages are ALWAYS never for love, never did i say that interracial marriages are ALWAYS someone trying to wash away ethncity.

alizahausman

i am sephardi. and ashkenazi. so obviously i have issues with that.

manishtana

but i, for example, am really neither. i may follow one or the other, but im not from either one. what i am saying is that instead of becoming the [ethnic] ashkenazi or sephardi, temani, etc, is that a jewish culture should be created that more accurately reflects where one who isnt one of these comes from. my post isnt about not marrying who you want…

alizahausman

it’s about marrying for community. i think u should post this in ur response to mine.

manishtana

…its about saying THIS here is what i am and what i follow, and this is what im bringing. b/c i feel that is why jocs in america are more seen as exotic creatures. b/c what really is distinguishing joc ashkenazi and white ashkenazi? the skin. but if we have a flair and style that makes the judaism uniquely ours, it would be a different FLAVOR of judaism which might be of interest and less on the outside appearance.

alizahausman

im out of this conversation even as a convert. i am a sephardic jew. rice, beans.

manishtana

by “ashkenaz” i mean ANY of the recognized groups. its just shorter to keep saying ashkenaz.

alizahausman

so u want recognition as ur own group? why don’t u write more about that.

manishtana

and this isnt limited to the “european” groups, but also to groups like “beta israel”. sure, i’m also black, but im NOT ethiopian, so following beta israel would not solve the problem either.

alizahausman

“european groups”?

manishtana

ashkenaz, sephard as opposed to yemenite, temani, morrocan, bukhari.

alizahausman

sephardim not all european.

manishtana

the sfardim who arent european i have usually found to be not really “sfardi” but another group like morrocan or mizrahi who are called sfardi under the blanket that theyre “not ashkenaz”.

alizahausman

i disagree.

manishtana

well again thats been my experience…ive only run into sfardim from spain or france or mizrahis and temanis. but more broadly, my point was its not a “i just wanna follow something black” b/c again, beta israel are black, but im not ethiopian, so its the same problem.

alizahausman

we’re obviously on a different page.

manishtana

i dont think we are.

alizahausman

but i do believe in valuing the traditions we come from.

manishtana

THATS EXACTLY WHAT IM SAYING! thats ALL im saying, really.

alizahausman

but ur saying u can’t do that if u marry outside ur race.

manishtana

no. im saying that too many times ive seen ppl throw away where they came from to ingratiate themselves to another race…im saying that just b/c you HAVE married outside ur race DOESNT mean that you’ve thrown away where you came from…im saying you dont HAVE to throw away where you came from just b/c you’re jewish…and im saying whats wrong with building a community with ppl of like experiences and shared backgrounds the way every other branch/sect/ethnic group/whatever of judaism has. im saying just b/c we’re one doesnt mean we cant be different, and just b/c we’re different doesnt mean we can’t be one.

alizahausman

i think u might want to clarify that on your post b/c that’s not what came across.

manishtana

im not sure how not. all the pieces are there and im sure i reiterated that in several places.

alizahausman

“well most don’t even phase me. korean/puerto-rican? cool. indian/haitian? whatever. but when the equation is caucasian/non-caucasian?” doesnt go anywhere good after that.

manishtana

sure it does. “some of us, however, lack the ability to look beyond our knee-jerk race loyalty to realize that we don’t know random couple a. we don’t know their story. after all, i doubt when G-d is giving out soulmates He’s thinking “ok, lemme keep all my blacks over here, and my asians over here, and my whites over there.””

alizahausman

true that was good. i dunno what to say. i don’t think u have to defend ur thoughts to me certainly. “non-white jews need to build community–one where we are accepted, not merely tolerated–and “interracial” relationships are not conducive to that.” i disagree.

manishtana

most times ive experienced that there’s ethnic x and ethnic x spends their time talking about  how theyre discriminated against and a need for community…then ethnic x gets married to non-ethnic, and suddenly the drive disappears…then ethnic x 2 comes along the same deal happens…then ethnic x 3,4, etc…all the while a community couldve been building…but they just dissolve into the greater picture making tiny impacts if any, where they couldve made one large one.

alizahausman

“to end this, i’d prefer it if at last a generation was willing to make the sacrifice to stay amongst their own to build a foundation for future generations to build from.” what do u mean by “their own”?

manishtana

“their own” meaning whoever there is that shares their background. im not asking the one random korean to hold out for a korean jewish girl. but if there are 10-15 male and females of whatever ethnicity, something can start to build there.

alizahausman

don’t i sort of defy ur little box? doesn’t mixedjewgirl? obviously i am very connected to latino culture and jewish culture and the mixture of both and jews of color and community for jews of color.

manishtana

you are quite honestly welcome exceptions to the rules. but you only prove my point.

alizahausman

how?

manishtana

why are you and mixedjewgirl around? you decided to SACRIFICE of your time and resources to be voices. there are joc children now that have voices to look to. voices that were not around when i was a kid.

alizahausman

i know. and i am sorry for that.

manishtana

its nothing to be sorry for. its a fact. for growth and consolidation to happen, sacrifices must be made.

alizahausman

i think u were very honest in ur post. i am just worried about how it can be weaponized by some. i am worried about a world vision that made it sound like my kids could only marry other jewish-dominican kids. i mean, i do KNOW other jewish-dominican kids. Lol. and i am building a community of them. but if they marry someone jewish-mexican i’ll eat more mexican food.

manishtana

and THATS what im talking about. collect those kids. if they stay with dominicans, fine. but if not, youve created a dominican “home” for them to belong to.

alizahausman

haha. i got it. u can write at the bottom of your post “please REREAD before commenting.” btw, kudos on having such good comments. i get such jerks lately i forget there are thoughtful wonderful jewish people out there reading blogs.

manishtana

dont worry. im new. if i make it, the jerks will come. like field of nightmares.

–MaNishtana

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2 thoughts on “This Is The Aftermath

  1. Doesnt really answer all the open questions and still looks a bit Garveyite. As for weaponizatin you are gonna be damned if you do and damned if you dont. Even if you can form a separatist Torah observant Jewish Black community, it will still be under suspicion from those types who say my way or the highway. Then again, what do I know? I dont have a horse in this race anyway.

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  2. no horses here either – mine all faded away generations ago.

    But you raise a fascinating point. The Persian community in my childhood neighborhood was extremely tight-woven, and exclusively so. My hope would be for something less exclusive, almost a pluralism-style approach to ethnicity. But that would also be inherently fragile…

    Thanks for the post! Knocked some rust off my noggin.

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